Nikon Live view vs actual picture

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neal Shields
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:02 pm

Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#1 Post by neal Shields » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:02 pm

By a strange coincidence of used system purchases, I ended up with a dedicated 12 meg pixel microscope camera (AM-1000 amscope) and the clunky software that comes with it and a 12 meg pixel SLR (D-300).

For ease of use and especially for video I prefer the SLR

However,

I can not get final photographs from the SLR that capture the detail that the AM-1000 does.

With the SLR, I barely resolve the holes (areolae) in diatoms. With the dedicated camera, they are starkly resolved.

However, with live view and a zoomed in image, they are also starkly resolved with the SLR! The camera can resolve the optical detail but it won't save it to a file.

Yes, I am using a remote release cable and have the camera in the mirror lock up mode. My camera mount is the Olympus factory system and would break a toe if dropped. (The weight of the camera is straight down into the mount.)

If i press down on the camera as I take the shot the resolution improves somewhat. This leads me to believe that the culprit is shake relating to the shutter.

If I loaded the Nikon software onto my computer I could view the image from live view on my computer and from there take a screen shot but I would be limited to screen resolution so pretty much back to where I started. (This would enable me to capture the extremely zoomed in image however)

Has anyone else chased this rabbit and if so did you learn anything different?

Thanks
Neal

PeteM
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Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#2 Post by PeteM » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:33 pm

Pictures of your camera setup might help. Many of us use Nikon live view (often FX vs. DX sensors) and get good photos, so it's a puzzle . . .

Perhaps something in the camera setup - resolution?

Perhaps an incompatible for deficient photo relay lens?

viktor j nilsson
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Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#3 Post by viktor j nilsson » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:09 pm

From what I've gleaned, most Nikon DSLR bodies don't have a true silent mode (EFSC or full electronic shutter). The ones I know that has this feature are their higher end full frame bodies. That's the main reason why so many have favored Canon DSLRs for photomicrography and photomacrography, where shutter-induced vibrations are disastrous.

This has changed now that mirrorless cameras are taking over, but with older bodies, Canon are a safer bet than Nikon. Also, not all Canon DSLRs are equally silent, some Canon models are notorious for inducing vibrations even in live view.

In short, I think that what you are describing sounds am awful lot like shutter shoc: clear details in live view, but not in the exposed image.

neal Shields
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:02 pm

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#4 Post by neal Shields » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:21 pm

Basically I struggled with everything you said for about 2 weeks.

My ah-ha moment was when I realized that I could see the detail in an extremely zoomed in live view but not in the final photograph.

The detail is being resolved by the SLR sensor but getting lost before it gets to the final saved image.

The main problem with my camera set up is that it was designed to be parafocal with a mirrorless camera. 17mm flange to sensor distance.

With the SLR the flange to sensor distance is about 25 mm. That meant that I had to refocus every time between the eyepiece and the camera.

I kept thinking that was the resolution problem but logically if I could focus on the specimen and un focus in both directions, I concluded that I couldn't have a focus problem. Additionally on my other microscope (Zeiss Ultraphote) it was made before digital cameras and the camera setup was optimized for an SLR. With similar objectives (I couldn't use the same ones because my Zeiss is 160mm and the Olympus is infinity) I still couldn't get the SLR to capture everything I could see in live view or through the eyepiece.

Even mirrorless cameras (at least to my knowledge) all have shutters. However, some of the cameras with smaller sensors have tiny shutters that couldn't disturb a house fly. So it seems like a choice between small sensors with very low vibration shutters or large sensors with high vibration shutters or dedicated microscope cameras with no shutters at all.

Note: the Olympus has the microscope camera on it now but everything stays the same with the SLR. I simply have a Nikon/c-mount adapter and screw it on in place of the microscope camera.
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PeteM
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Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:22 am
Location: N. California

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#5 Post by PeteM » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:09 pm

Is that an Olympus finite (BH2 etc) or infinite (BX) microscope in your pix? The proper adapters and photo relay lenses change a bit.

Viktor may well be right that camera shake is part or all of the problem.

Just guessing - you have an Olympus BH2 with a BH2 microscope adapter and an Olympus BH2-era 2.5x photo relay lens inside of it?? If so, that should be OK. Same thing if it's all BX era with the proper 2.5x photo relay lens and OEM adapter.

If not -- pushing the microscope out of its proper focal distance may also be an issue.

Sure Squintsalot
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon May 16, 2022 3:44 pm

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#6 Post by Sure Squintsalot » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:03 am

I've mounted a (2013) SONY NEX-5 mirrorless camera to my Optiphot and do not have these problems. But then, in addition to a wireless remote with 2 second shutter release delay and "hands-off" actuation, I use the "electronic first curtain exposure" capability, which effectively keeps the mechanical shutter locked open while an "electronic" shutter does the work of exposing the image without using any mechanical contrivance that would cause vibrations and ruin an image. I press the button, lift my hands off the scope, and 2 seconds later I'm back to mauling the controls with my quivering meat spatulas.

I've mated this camera to telescopes and large, old telephoto lenses for very crisp, long exposure images extremely sensitive to the slightest camera motion.

However.....

In situations where minor vibrations would be encountered, I'd weigh down my tripod with 15 kilos of rocks or sandbags, effectively increasing the mass of the total imaging system and neutering those vibrations; it's why professional tripods are so huge and heavy. Assuming that the sensor itself is "cemented" to the camera body and your camera is tightly mated to your scope all the way to the objective, I suggest placing a filled, sealed 1 liter water bottle on the back of the camera to see if that clears up your fuzzy edges. If that fixes it, then you'd want to build a nice, sexy, vibration compensator out of milled stainless steel, laser etched indicator lines, and an array of balancing screws until it looked like a competitive archer's bow. Last thing you might try is lengthening (or shortening) the length of the light path to your sensor; if the shutter actuation sets off an internal vibration that is amplified by the wavelength of the image path length, altering that length might help.

Good luck!

(and let us know what works)

Tom Jones
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:47 pm

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#7 Post by Tom Jones » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:13 am

Have you checked your camera settings to be sure your photos are not being saved as a really low resolution jpg?

neal Shields
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:02 pm

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#8 Post by neal Shields » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:55 pm

I even tried saving in raw. Nothing helps.

I am just going to use my microscope camera for high res stills and my SLR for video.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Neal

Scarodactyl
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Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Re: Nikon Live view vs actual picture

#9 Post by Scarodactyl » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:20 pm

I suspect vibration, though the way you have it attached is also going to push the optics out of spec and give suboptimal performance. For an Olympus infinity head an aps-c camera can be hooked up directly to the head with a 3d print and a couple adapters. Not all olympus objectives will cover that area with good quality but some will and you avoid some other potential issies with the setup (and a m4/3 camera's 22mm diagonal is good for almost all olympus objectives). But that's not much help if shutter shake is eating fine details. You can usually tell if that's the issue by looking at a fine point highlight in reflected light and seeing if/how it smears.

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