Is this genius or madness ?

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MichaelG.
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Is this genius or madness ?

#1 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:46 pm

… and more importantly: Is it the makings of the microscope camera of the future ?

https://ymcinema.com/2022/11/03/smartph ... atography/

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Dennis
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#2 Post by Dennis » Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:06 pm

Michael,

Madness for me in particular because I do not like cell phones and plan on never owning one.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#3 Post by PeteM » Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:02 pm

Michael -- not a bad idea to make a smartphone optimized for high quality and low light video. I like the idea of including a camera mount on the phone. Does seem though, that burn in of the CCD while exposed might be a possibility, unless the cover glass removes UV (likely does?).

As for market acceptance, something like an old Nikon J-1 mirrorless camera (or any of the other cameras with the same 1" Sony sensor as this prototype) would likely be a whole lot cheaper.

I've tried a half dozen add-on lenses for microscopy. The problem with the cell phone add-ons to turn them into microscopes is that once you get above 100x or so magnification, you really want an illumination system, a focusing condenser with an iris, a mechanical stage, proper alignment, and a fine focusing system. In other words, a proper microscope stand -- to which you might attach a cell phone camera.

Don't doubt though, that increased processing power may eventually enable much better hand-held shots, automated focus stacking, etc.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#4 Post by apochronaut » Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:21 am

Under the current umbrella of technology it seems like it might get some market acceptance. That's all they are looking for, right now. If they can get enough of that, there may be corporate followers and then a standardized format for add on lenses to cell phones could take place. They would be on the ground floor theoretically and could survive on the patents.
The advertising seems to imply that they are looking for a place in the cinematography market, and no doubt the freedom a small roving camera capable of close to professional quality would give the user would be popular. It needs tripod capability.

Minolta tried a mini camera format at the wrong time : no followers. The Beta format although far superior to the VHS format had only a few adherents, mostly Sanyo who just bought Sony's previous year's designs. The Elcaset had few adherents and collapsed, despite it's potential. The video disc had no adherents and was short lived.
and Kodak failed to take advantage of their own innovations in sufficient time.

Despite how small that lens is, it is still a great big honking lens on a cell phone. Lenses are getting smaller and software is replacing the missing bulk. Are they relying on the pro/serious look of a prominent lens a little too much?

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#5 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:31 am

My point of interest was that, although ‘promoted’ as a vehicle for L-mount lenses … this could be the simplest and most easily-adapted arrangement of a 1” sensor that I have yet seen.

As microscopists … we don’t need the lens, we just need the versatility of mounting.

MichaelG.
.

Ref. __ https://l-mount.com/ and https://l-mount.com/en/overview-213
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#6 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:08 am

.

It may not be immediately obvious at first-reading … but it is important to note that there are three building-blocks in this illustration:
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F986BA0A-1C93-4D02-8E58-189F83862CFB.jpeg
F986BA0A-1C93-4D02-8E58-189F83862CFB.jpeg (84.27 KiB) Viewed 3656 times
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There is an L-mount lens, and the ‘phone … but between them is a spacer/adapter that substitutes for a camera body.

What we need [aside from the ‘phone itself] is the dimensions of the interface between that tube and the body of the ‘phone.

MichaelG.
.

Edit: __ a little more detail here: https://l-mount.com/en/overview-213
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Phill Brown
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#7 Post by Phill Brown » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:12 am

It's a camera with a SIM card slot.
In the race to get an image online it's probably a good bet.
I'll stick with a dedicated camera and a dedicated phone that can fit into a standard pocket for now.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#8 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:13 am

Sorry, Phil … you have completely lost me there.

To me, it’s a dust protected 1” sensor in the shallowest possible body … which therefore provides maximum opportunity for adaptation to our microscopes.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#9 Post by Phill Brown » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:13 pm

I'm still missing the logic of the phone budget Vs the budget microscope setup that it might be a solution for.
My phone has a calculator app but it still doesn't add up.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#10 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:29 pm

I think we are still talking at cross purposes, Phill

I didn’t particularly admire it as a ‘phone, or as a camera … What impressed me was that someone has had the wit to put a top quality, large size, sensor safely behind a crystal window.

Every time we remove a typical C-mount camera from a microscope, we risk getting dust on the sensor … but this one is protected behind a window that’s probably just sufficiently forward of the sensor to make dust less troublesome [and, of course, the window is easily accessible for wiping]

It’s the first such implementation I have seen, but if no-one is interested in discussing the potential, that’s fine …

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#11 Post by Alexander » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:37 pm

It is not mad, it is just a click-bait.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#12 Post by apochronaut » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:56 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:29 pm
I think we are still talking at cross purposes, Phill

I didn’t particularly admire it as a ‘phone, or as a camera … What impressed me was that someone has had the wit to put a top quality, large size, sensor safely behind a crystal window.

Every time we remove a typical C-mount camera from a microscope, we risk getting dust on the sensor … but this one is protected behind a window that’s probably just sufficiently forward of the sensor to make dust less troublesome [and, of course, the window is easily accessible for wiping]

It’s the first such implementation I have seen, but if no-one is interested in discussing the potential, that’s fine …

MichaelG.
It's a large sensor but miniaturization comes fast these days. The idea of a protected sensor is wonderful. It's expensive. I could see Hasselblad maybe making a go of it but aside from Leica being brandished, the name might be a limiting factor. Consumers are vulnerable to price point and brand association.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#13 Post by Scarodactyl » Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:08 am

It's neat. I wonder what effect the sapphire window has since it is not isotropic and has a high refractive index (relatively speaking). I'm not sure it has major advantages for microscopy over a mirrorless camera, and if you have higher-tier optics their field number will be wider than 16mm.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#14 Post by Phill Brown » Sat Dec 31, 2022 2:29 pm

It's great to share innovations.
Mobile phones have a very limited lifespan with or without a 1" sensor.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#15 Post by imkap » Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:37 pm

Not sure how they would implement autofocus with these. Maybe make specific lens for a specific phone mount or a Bluetooth connection, AF needs power too. The whole point of phone photography that you can have a camera on you all the time and it fits in a pocket. With additional lens it isn't that simple, as you need to carry the lens around and attach it and remove it when the phone rings to talk, or talk with a lens attached :mrgreen: I'm not sure who and why exactly would buy these, we'll see probably :mrgreen:

So the thing is phone with a 1 inch sensor camera which cannot take pictures without a lens.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#16 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:02 pm

imkap wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:37 pm
… So the thing is phone with a 1 inch sensor camera which cannot take pictures without a lens.
But it has other sensors, with lenses … and anyway [at the risk of repeating myself] the only part that really interested me, and which [mistakenly?] I thought might be relevant here was the fact that the 1” sensor is (a) protected and (b) very accessible … which struck me as being the basics of a great microscope camera.

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Scarodactyl
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#17 Post by Scarodactyl » Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:23 pm

For sure, and that is certainly neat.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#18 Post by imkap » Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:06 pm

MichaelG. wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:02 pm
imkap wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 7:37 pm
… So the thing is phone with a 1 inch sensor camera which cannot take pictures without a lens.
But it has other sensors, with lenses … and anyway [at the risk of repeating myself] the only part that really interested me, and which [mistakenly?] I thought might be relevant here was the fact that the 1” sensor is (a) protected and (b) very accessible … which struck me as being the basics of a great microscope camera.

MichaelG.
I agree, it would be great if the sensors were more protected, so you could wipe it with some cloth, not having to use the specialized wipes. Not only for microscope use.
It is an interesting post and relevant here, I'm just not very fond of phones taking over everything, so that was my main focus when I saw the article.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#19 Post by PeteM » Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:28 pm

For a mere $5K+ one could get a mirrorless Nikon Z9. No mechanical shutter whatsoever. Instead, what looks like a shutter to protect the sensor in between lens changes . . . that might be marketing genius and fiscal madness??

As I understand it, there already is a thin glass cover over the sensor array. My assumption has been that it is prone to scratching, so a sturdy and harder sapphire window might indeed make some sense. It does seem that it would have to be coated to avoid reflections and losing contrast - and that coating possibly fragile?

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#20 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:14 am

PeteM wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:28 pm
As I understand it, there already is a thin glass cover over the sensor array. My assumption has been that it is prone to scratching, so a sturdy and harder sapphire window might indeed make some sense. It does seem that it would have to be coated to avoid reflections and losing contrast - and that coating possibly fragile?
Yes, Pete … any camera sensor typically has a thin glass cover, and most of them are located tens of millimetres inside a cavity
It never seems an easy job to clean a sensor in a C-mount camera, does it ?

What I rather like about this sapphire window idea is that not only is it easy to clean, but the window would be in the “Goldilocks zone” where any dust and smears that might be on it will not be as intrusive … The big problem with dust on our microscope sensors being that it casts bold shadows [think how much cleaner your DSLR sensor seems to be when you are using ordinary lenses] … I’m not quite sure how the optics of this situation works, but I think it merits further investigation.

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Re: Is this genius or madness ?

#21 Post by Greg Howald » Wed Jan 04, 2023 2:52 pm

Do not forget that genius and madness often overlap.

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