Is this genius or madness ?
Is this genius or madness ?
… and more importantly: Is it the makings of the microscope camera of the future ?
https://ymcinema.com/2022/11/03/smartph ... atography/
MichaelG.
https://ymcinema.com/2022/11/03/smartph ... atography/
MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Michael,
Madness for me in particular because I do not like cell phones and plan on never owning one.
Madness for me in particular because I do not like cell phones and plan on never owning one.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Michael -- not a bad idea to make a smartphone optimized for high quality and low light video. I like the idea of including a camera mount on the phone. Does seem though, that burn in of the CCD while exposed might be a possibility, unless the cover glass removes UV (likely does?).
As for market acceptance, something like an old Nikon J-1 mirrorless camera (or any of the other cameras with the same 1" Sony sensor as this prototype) would likely be a whole lot cheaper.
I've tried a half dozen add-on lenses for microscopy. The problem with the cell phone add-ons to turn them into microscopes is that once you get above 100x or so magnification, you really want an illumination system, a focusing condenser with an iris, a mechanical stage, proper alignment, and a fine focusing system. In other words, a proper microscope stand -- to which you might attach a cell phone camera.
Don't doubt though, that increased processing power may eventually enable much better hand-held shots, automated focus stacking, etc.
As for market acceptance, something like an old Nikon J-1 mirrorless camera (or any of the other cameras with the same 1" Sony sensor as this prototype) would likely be a whole lot cheaper.
I've tried a half dozen add-on lenses for microscopy. The problem with the cell phone add-ons to turn them into microscopes is that once you get above 100x or so magnification, you really want an illumination system, a focusing condenser with an iris, a mechanical stage, proper alignment, and a fine focusing system. In other words, a proper microscope stand -- to which you might attach a cell phone camera.
Don't doubt though, that increased processing power may eventually enable much better hand-held shots, automated focus stacking, etc.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Under the current umbrella of technology it seems like it might get some market acceptance. That's all they are looking for, right now. If they can get enough of that, there may be corporate followers and then a standardized format for add on lenses to cell phones could take place. They would be on the ground floor theoretically and could survive on the patents.
The advertising seems to imply that they are looking for a place in the cinematography market, and no doubt the freedom a small roving camera capable of close to professional quality would give the user would be popular. It needs tripod capability.
Minolta tried a mini camera format at the wrong time : no followers. The Beta format although far superior to the VHS format had only a few adherents, mostly Sanyo who just bought Sony's previous year's designs. The Elcaset had few adherents and collapsed, despite it's potential. The video disc had no adherents and was short lived.
and Kodak failed to take advantage of their own innovations in sufficient time.
Despite how small that lens is, it is still a great big honking lens on a cell phone. Lenses are getting smaller and software is replacing the missing bulk. Are they relying on the pro/serious look of a prominent lens a little too much?
The advertising seems to imply that they are looking for a place in the cinematography market, and no doubt the freedom a small roving camera capable of close to professional quality would give the user would be popular. It needs tripod capability.
Minolta tried a mini camera format at the wrong time : no followers. The Beta format although far superior to the VHS format had only a few adherents, mostly Sanyo who just bought Sony's previous year's designs. The Elcaset had few adherents and collapsed, despite it's potential. The video disc had no adherents and was short lived.
and Kodak failed to take advantage of their own innovations in sufficient time.
Despite how small that lens is, it is still a great big honking lens on a cell phone. Lenses are getting smaller and software is replacing the missing bulk. Are they relying on the pro/serious look of a prominent lens a little too much?
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
My point of interest was that, although ‘promoted’ as a vehicle for L-mount lenses … this could be the simplest and most easily-adapted arrangement of a 1” sensor that I have yet seen.
As microscopists … we don’t need the lens, we just need the versatility of mounting.
MichaelG.
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Ref. __ https://l-mount.com/ and https://l-mount.com/en/overview-213
As microscopists … we don’t need the lens, we just need the versatility of mounting.
MichaelG.
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Ref. __ https://l-mount.com/ and https://l-mount.com/en/overview-213
Too many 'projects'
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
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It may not be immediately obvious at first-reading … but it is important to note that there are three building-blocks in this illustration:
. .
There is an L-mount lens, and the ‘phone … but between them is a spacer/adapter that substitutes for a camera body.
What we need [aside from the ‘phone itself] is the dimensions of the interface between that tube and the body of the ‘phone.
MichaelG.
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Edit: __ a little more detail here: https://l-mount.com/en/overview-213
It may not be immediately obvious at first-reading … but it is important to note that there are three building-blocks in this illustration:
. .
There is an L-mount lens, and the ‘phone … but between them is a spacer/adapter that substitutes for a camera body.
What we need [aside from the ‘phone itself] is the dimensions of the interface between that tube and the body of the ‘phone.
MichaelG.
.
Edit: __ a little more detail here: https://l-mount.com/en/overview-213
Too many 'projects'
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
It's a camera with a SIM card slot.
In the race to get an image online it's probably a good bet.
I'll stick with a dedicated camera and a dedicated phone that can fit into a standard pocket for now.
In the race to get an image online it's probably a good bet.
I'll stick with a dedicated camera and a dedicated phone that can fit into a standard pocket for now.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Sorry, Phil … you have completely lost me there.
To me, it’s a dust protected 1” sensor in the shallowest possible body … which therefore provides maximum opportunity for adaptation to our microscopes.
MichaelG.
To me, it’s a dust protected 1” sensor in the shallowest possible body … which therefore provides maximum opportunity for adaptation to our microscopes.
MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
I'm still missing the logic of the phone budget Vs the budget microscope setup that it might be a solution for.
My phone has a calculator app but it still doesn't add up.
My phone has a calculator app but it still doesn't add up.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
I think we are still talking at cross purposes, Phill
I didn’t particularly admire it as a ‘phone, or as a camera … What impressed me was that someone has had the wit to put a top quality, large size, sensor safely behind a crystal window.
Every time we remove a typical C-mount camera from a microscope, we risk getting dust on the sensor … but this one is protected behind a window that’s probably just sufficiently forward of the sensor to make dust less troublesome [and, of course, the window is easily accessible for wiping]
It’s the first such implementation I have seen, but if no-one is interested in discussing the potential, that’s fine …
MichaelG.
I didn’t particularly admire it as a ‘phone, or as a camera … What impressed me was that someone has had the wit to put a top quality, large size, sensor safely behind a crystal window.
Every time we remove a typical C-mount camera from a microscope, we risk getting dust on the sensor … but this one is protected behind a window that’s probably just sufficiently forward of the sensor to make dust less troublesome [and, of course, the window is easily accessible for wiping]
It’s the first such implementation I have seen, but if no-one is interested in discussing the potential, that’s fine …
MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
It is not mad, it is just a click-bait.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
It's a large sensor but miniaturization comes fast these days. The idea of a protected sensor is wonderful. It's expensive. I could see Hasselblad maybe making a go of it but aside from Leica being brandished, the name might be a limiting factor. Consumers are vulnerable to price point and brand association.MichaelG. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:29 pmI think we are still talking at cross purposes, Phill
I didn’t particularly admire it as a ‘phone, or as a camera … What impressed me was that someone has had the wit to put a top quality, large size, sensor safely behind a crystal window.
Every time we remove a typical C-mount camera from a microscope, we risk getting dust on the sensor … but this one is protected behind a window that’s probably just sufficiently forward of the sensor to make dust less troublesome [and, of course, the window is easily accessible for wiping]
It’s the first such implementation I have seen, but if no-one is interested in discussing the potential, that’s fine …
MichaelG.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
It's neat. I wonder what effect the sapphire window has since it is not isotropic and has a high refractive index (relatively speaking). I'm not sure it has major advantages for microscopy over a mirrorless camera, and if you have higher-tier optics their field number will be wider than 16mm.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
It's great to share innovations.
Mobile phones have a very limited lifespan with or without a 1" sensor.
Mobile phones have a very limited lifespan with or without a 1" sensor.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Not sure how they would implement autofocus with these. Maybe make specific lens for a specific phone mount or a Bluetooth connection, AF needs power too. The whole point of phone photography that you can have a camera on you all the time and it fits in a pocket. With additional lens it isn't that simple, as you need to carry the lens around and attach it and remove it when the phone rings to talk, or talk with a lens attached I'm not sure who and why exactly would buy these, we'll see probably
So the thing is phone with a 1 inch sensor camera which cannot take pictures without a lens.
So the thing is phone with a 1 inch sensor camera which cannot take pictures without a lens.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
But it has other sensors, with lenses … and anyway [at the risk of repeating myself] the only part that really interested me, and which [mistakenly?] I thought might be relevant here was the fact that the 1” sensor is (a) protected and (b) very accessible … which struck me as being the basics of a great microscope camera.
MichaelG.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
For sure, and that is certainly neat.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
I agree, it would be great if the sensors were more protected, so you could wipe it with some cloth, not having to use the specialized wipes. Not only for microscope use.MichaelG. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:02 pmBut it has other sensors, with lenses … and anyway [at the risk of repeating myself] the only part that really interested me, and which [mistakenly?] I thought might be relevant here was the fact that the 1” sensor is (a) protected and (b) very accessible … which struck me as being the basics of a great microscope camera.
MichaelG.
It is an interesting post and relevant here, I'm just not very fond of phones taking over everything, so that was my main focus when I saw the article.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
For a mere $5K+ one could get a mirrorless Nikon Z9. No mechanical shutter whatsoever. Instead, what looks like a shutter to protect the sensor in between lens changes . . . that might be marketing genius and fiscal madness??
As I understand it, there already is a thin glass cover over the sensor array. My assumption has been that it is prone to scratching, so a sturdy and harder sapphire window might indeed make some sense. It does seem that it would have to be coated to avoid reflections and losing contrast - and that coating possibly fragile?
As I understand it, there already is a thin glass cover over the sensor array. My assumption has been that it is prone to scratching, so a sturdy and harder sapphire window might indeed make some sense. It does seem that it would have to be coated to avoid reflections and losing contrast - and that coating possibly fragile?
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Yes, Pete … any camera sensor typically has a thin glass cover, and most of them are located tens of millimetres inside a cavityPeteM wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 11:28 pmAs I understand it, there already is a thin glass cover over the sensor array. My assumption has been that it is prone to scratching, so a sturdy and harder sapphire window might indeed make some sense. It does seem that it would have to be coated to avoid reflections and losing contrast - and that coating possibly fragile?
It never seems an easy job to clean a sensor in a C-mount camera, does it ?
What I rather like about this sapphire window idea is that not only is it easy to clean, but the window would be in the “Goldilocks zone” where any dust and smears that might be on it will not be as intrusive … The big problem with dust on our microscope sensors being that it casts bold shadows [think how much cleaner your DSLR sensor seems to be when you are using ordinary lenses] … I’m not quite sure how the optics of this situation works, but I think it merits further investigation.
MichaelG.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Do not forget that genius and madness often overlap.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
It looks like Leica has gone with the idea
https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/World-o ... tz-Phone-2
MichaelG.
https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/World-o ... tz-Phone-2
MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
I sort of agree..all the assembly, and latter disassembly offers much potential for dust, lint, dirt, and mishaps to screw up 'professional lenses'...then storage case to hold the lens unit safely..you are outdoors or at indoor events
with an encumbering collection of kits. Yes the joy of a smart phone was ( before this setup added to it) that it fits in your pocket. I wistfully recall 1980's SONY WalkMan 'personal audio device'..wow that sound was clear..with your ear-buds...
but then people started selling desk top size speaker systems to dock your walkman into..more and more it morphed to a collection of devices added together..the footprint over say 8"X12".
I totally see michaelG's excitement with that compact 1" sensor ..I'm sure Leica will make it impossible to get that sensor isolated for DIY microscopists, other tech adroit enthusiasts.
Oddly, to me, that Leica role out phone...sure looks like the mentally unstable super computer: "Hal"'s lens ports ominously keeping watch over the two astronaughts in film: "Twothousand one, space odyssey". charlie g
with an encumbering collection of kits. Yes the joy of a smart phone was ( before this setup added to it) that it fits in your pocket. I wistfully recall 1980's SONY WalkMan 'personal audio device'..wow that sound was clear..with your ear-buds...
but then people started selling desk top size speaker systems to dock your walkman into..more and more it morphed to a collection of devices added together..the footprint over say 8"X12".
I totally see michaelG's excitement with that compact 1" sensor ..I'm sure Leica will make it impossible to get that sensor isolated for DIY microscopists, other tech adroit enthusiasts.
Oddly, to me, that Leica role out phone...sure looks like the mentally unstable super computer: "Hal"'s lens ports ominously keeping watch over the two astronaughts in film: "Twothousand one, space odyssey". charlie g
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Leica's technical data says Sharp makes the phone -- and this appears to be the Sharp version: https://www.gadgets360.com/sharp-aquos- ... dia-117463MichaelG. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 28, 2024 5:09 pmIt looks like Leica has gone with the idea
https://leica-camera.com/en-GB/World-o ... tz-Phone-2
MichaelG.
Personally, I like the idea. I'd especially like to see a method for third-party lens attachments and secure mounting. Perhaps there's a thread mount - I haven't checked closely. It could be that the main lens dust cover screws on rather than snaps on.
And, auto focus bracketing, focus stacking, and a sort of built-in Photoshop should eventually be options.
I suspect I wouldn't like the price point—though it would likely be better Sharp-branded than Leica-branded.
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Re: Is this genius or madness ?
Seems the package is more armed to suit photographers who are willing to anti up. Interchangeability of lenses across brands is a selling feature that microscopists don't really need. For the output involved , a microscopist can buy a dedicated microscope camera with pretty high end targeted microscope features. Global shutter, integrated in-camera stacking for instance.
Re: Is this genius or madness ?
I am curious to know how one could use a large 'bare' sensor like this ... or where a bare sensor should be put, or even if one should use a bare sensor at all ?
I feel that when I direct project into an APSC dslr I am missing the corrections from the eyepiece.
I keep hankering after a mirrorless for direct projection, but then I notice that a lot of the straight-through eyepiece adapters for mirrorless cameras look as if they need an extension tube behind them to allow the light to splay out enough to cover an apsc sized sensor.
In the end I wonder if should put up the longer optic tube length and just get a more modern DSLR
Re. the pic of the prototype phone with the big lens; that was a Xiaomi 12 S Ultra prototype .. when 12S was actually produced it looked pretty similar to 'new' the Leitz/ Leica.
https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_12s_ult ... -11614.php
The present 'flagship' Xiaomi (14S Ultra) happens to have a Leica branded lens set, too.
So there seems to be some chat between Xiaomi and Leica .. perhaps Sharp are making the Xiaomi 12S ultra for Leitz Leica (??)
I feel that when I direct project into an APSC dslr I am missing the corrections from the eyepiece.
I keep hankering after a mirrorless for direct projection, but then I notice that a lot of the straight-through eyepiece adapters for mirrorless cameras look as if they need an extension tube behind them to allow the light to splay out enough to cover an apsc sized sensor.
In the end I wonder if should put up the longer optic tube length and just get a more modern DSLR
Re. the pic of the prototype phone with the big lens; that was a Xiaomi 12 S Ultra prototype .. when 12S was actually produced it looked pretty similar to 'new' the Leitz/ Leica.
https://www.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_12s_ult ... -11614.php
The present 'flagship' Xiaomi (14S Ultra) happens to have a Leica branded lens set, too.
So there seems to be some chat between Xiaomi and Leica .. perhaps Sharp are making the Xiaomi 12S ultra for Leitz Leica (??)