A potential Game-Changer

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MichaelG.
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A potential Game-Changer

#1 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:02 am

Announced today:
A Global Shutter camera for the Raspberry Pi

https://thepihut.com/products/raspberry ... 7915b454b9

MichaelG.

.
Edit: Useful info, here: https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/new-ra ... er-camera/
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apochronaut
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#2 Post by apochronaut » Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:48 am

especially at that price. mp are a little light but due to the structure of the sensor it is difficult to rise much above 5, with any economy attached.

MichaelG.
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#3 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:44 pm

This may be of interest to the uninitiated:
https://youtu.be/3HhdO11lD04

Although undistorted video of cilliates should be more so

MichaelG.
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dirigibil
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#4 Post by dirigibil » Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:58 pm

Why is having a global shutter a big deal for imaging in microscopy? Excuse my ignorance.

apochronaut
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#5 Post by apochronaut » Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:07 pm

I bought a dedicated microscope camera with s 5 mp sensor and global shutter about a year ago and it is definitely of value when capturing quick moving action on video. Cilia, definitely become more real, defined and lifelike. Darting organisms less blurred. Basically anything that moves fast, whole organism or body part is imaged in a more resolved defined fashion. There is a 3-D effect, just slightly. The image stands out: crisper.

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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#6 Post by MichaelG. » Thu Mar 09, 2023 5:50 pm

dirigibil wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:58 pm
Why is having a global shutter a big deal for imaging in microscopy? Excuse my ignorance.
Nicely explained by Apochronaut
The motion of cillia is usually very poorly captured by the more common ‘rolling shutter’

MichaelG.
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MicroBob
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#7 Post by MicroBob » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:42 am

apochronaut wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:07 pm
I bought a dedicated microscope camera with s 5 mp sensor and global shutter about a year ago and it is definitely of value when capturing quick moving action on video.
Can you post a link to this camera, Phil? 5 mp sounds a lot less restricted than the 1,6 mp of the raspi camera.

Bob

apochronaut
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#8 Post by apochronaut » Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:04 am

This is it. I bought it through made in China.com and they shipped it for free. Prices for it are variable. I have seen it double what I paid (675.00), so not a cheapo.

https://www.tucsen.com/michrome-product/

MichaelG.
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#9 Post by MichaelG. » Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:13 am

Hence my carefully chosen wording for the ‘Subject’

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tlansing
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#10 Post by tlansing » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:54 pm

Does anyone have any videos or links to videos of protists taken using a global shutter camera?

MichaelG.
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#11 Post by MichaelG. » Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:20 pm

tlansing wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:54 pm
Does anyone have any videos or links to videos of protists taken using a global shutter camera?
Personally … I have taken nothing of interest yet
[for other reasons, my project is way behind schedule]

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apochronaut
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#12 Post by apochronaut » Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:52 pm

tlansing wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:54 pm
Does anyone have any videos or links to videos of protists taken using a global shutter camera?
I am sure some are out there. I haven't posted any I have done. Just time but I will at some point.

charlie g
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#13 Post by charlie g » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:57 pm

Thank you, Michael G. , and apo (Phil), and late winter greetings to all.

This wonderful product has so many applications in microscopy..but it still seems 'a tease' for live protist activities ( regards to benefit of 'image-stacking'..regards to 'live stiching/ mozaic image compilations).

A huge ciliate ( Spirostomium species, Stentor species...etc.) I sense from apo's global 5 mp camera link...can not be 'live stiched'...the microscopist has to peruse the lengths of these behemoths, as they move about..'live stiching' in the link seems only good for non-moving targets ( the link displays 'live stiching' with a stained tissue prep.).

The camera link shows 'image stacking' with a non moving insect appendage...on the heels of our US Oscar celebration..that insect image stack seems to be a buxom Oscar statue sporting wings.

I opined in posts a few times my sense that I never observe 'image stiching, and image stacking applied to live , and moving protists and meiofauna.

I really like the 5-mp global shutter camera apo purchased.

My question for Michael G., and apo, and all...?) Are we with global shutter cameras making the expensive: " shutterless camras obsolete...as shutterless cameras do not have 'global shutters'?

Thanks for a great microscopy image capture thread. charlie g/finger lakes/US...7 inches snow fall so far this evening.

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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#14 Post by MichaelG. » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:14 am

charlie g wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:57 pm
My question for Michael G., and apo, and all...?) Are we with global shutter cameras making the expensive: " shutterless camras obsolete...as shutterless cameras do not have 'global shutters'?
That’s an interesting philosophical question ‘charlie g’
I think the broad answer is NO … because the rolling shutter cameras will continue to excel at many things.
BUT, as you clearly recognise, the global shutter can take us a step closer to imaging reality when observing motion.

The comparison video which is around … showing the motion of a plucked guitar-string … is a great proof of concept.
The ‘rippling’ that is visible on the rolling shutter version is an artefact
The smooth motion on the global shutter version better portrays reality, and my simple ambition is to capture the motion of cillia in a similar fashion.
.

Best source: https://youtu.be/Dk6o5RAIaj4
[but please note the date, and the now largely-irrelevant emphasis on CCD vs CMOS technology]

.

MichaelG.

.
For the sake of disambiguation:

Artefact as per [2]
4D2263D9-21AF-472D-B6D2-F3801E4184C3.jpeg
4D2263D9-21AF-472D-B6D2-F3801E4184C3.jpeg (153.14 KiB) Viewed 6587 times
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dirigibil
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#15 Post by dirigibil » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:10 pm

charlie g wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:57 pm
A huge ciliate ( Spirostomium species, Stentor species...etc.) I sense from apo's global 5 mp camera link...can not be 'live stiched'...the microscopist has to peruse the lengths of these behemoths, as they move about..'live stiching' in the link seems only good for non-moving targets ( the link displays 'live stiching' with a stained tissue prep.).
I'm not sure how well this applies to microscopy, but I have played a little bit with photogrammetry and SLAM, and the developments in those areas I could see easily applying to this case as well. The ability to find links among images of different perspectives, angles, distances, and lighting is incredibly complex but it is a studied and mature technology. The problem at the moment is that it is confined for use cases for robots to make maps of areas and navigate (think roombas not running over your phone cord) or for 3D modeling of areas (insert people and objects into locations without having to build a set or even use a greenscreen), but I haven't see its application in close-up work or dynamic action situations.

I know these are completely different in that mapping locations (even with dynamic elements) is not the same as recognizing parts of the same animal and stitching them together, but I see massive mutual overlaps in solving the same problems. If we could combine this with an image correction AI trained on protists, it seems to me entirely doable with current technology given a fair amount of effort and a few months of time.

charlie g
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#16 Post by charlie g » Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:30 am

Thanks for reminding all in forum the complexity of: 'machine vision'/ AI vision in real time/ in dynamic ( the real world is dynamic on oh so many scales) environment vision data collection, 'deridgible'.

From what you give pointers too..in order to : real time/ image capture (? Do we start using term"vision"..when image captures approach real time/ total field pixel-collection/ global shutter images capability...akin to our root sense of 'human vision' ?

I guess it's wistful thinking on my part to have a gorgeous Chlorohydra species, or a huge cetacean like Spirostomium ciliate in total body form, recorded with a 40X microscope objective...or higher mag. objective to visualize relationships of epibiont bacteria/ algae/ protozoa flora...to image-stich/ image stack...with the wonder these living targets offer microscopists...sigh. our plow-guy came today at 6:30 am..so I am happy, all the best, charlie g.
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BramHuntingNematodes
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#17 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:24 am

So, after having used the Pi HQ camera for a couple of years, I of course bought this one. I can say that it seems like a decent enough camera, but I would recommend against it. There is essentially no software to run it that I can find anywhere, just a thousand supercilious dweebs whose advice is mostly to program my own in Python. If that sounds like a good idea, then go for it, but I now wish I had saved up my pennies and bought a real camera instead of what is turning out to be more of an educational toy. Taking pictures and adjusting settings via command line is a disaster. There were some programs a few people had written that I had previously used, but after updating my OS (if you use a Raspberry Pi much of your time will be in updating the OS and upgrading the software, they always need updates somehow, and to find your way through this quagmire of versioning you will end up reformatting, as I did) anyway, yes after updating my OS so that the camera would work at all, none of the older programs function correctly anymore. So far it has been an abysmal experience, fraught with teeth gnashing and punctuated by a few moments of actually pretty ok imaging using the basic Python programming library (the only software that acknowledges this camera so far) to invoke the preview function. Maybe wait a few years to see if someone out there podges together something worthwhile, or if you want to tinker with Python code instead of a microscope, or maybe just get a real camera from a manufacturer that is interested in having you take pictures with it.
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#18 Post by BramHuntingNematodes » Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:27 am

If I ever get it working I might try to post a video of a 'tode whipping around to demonstrate the shutter system. Until then, I'm out two cameras.
1942 Bausch and Lomb Series T Dynoptic, Custom Illumination

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#19 Post by Macro_Cosmos » Mon May 15, 2023 12:31 am

Is there really an inherent advantage of global shutters when it comes to filming microbes spazzing around? I am simply not convinced.

In fluorescence imaging, unless either the light source is triggered or a shutter is used, combined with very high speed to prevent cellular toxicity, I cannot see the need of a global shutter. (Say hi to LED/solid state illumination.) I would much rather have the benefits of a backside illuminated sensor with only a rolling shutter. Many of these cameras also offer a simulated global shutter as well, the big 4 in scientific cameras certainly do that (ZL41, Orca-Flash 4.0 V3, PCO.edge 4.2, Prime BSI).

A simulated global shutter functions by triggering the light source when all the pixels can be read.

Anecdotally, most asking for a global shutter simply do not need it. They usually end up with a BSI sensor to reap the benefits of higher QE and lower read noise. This might be surprising but there is no BSI sensor camera with a true global shutter.

Rolling shutters are faster, cheaper (arguably), readout noise is lower, and allows for higher QE from BSI sensors. Most models offer simulated global shutters anyway, or one can implement it themselves.

Sure, this is all nerd speak and might as well be tossed in some kind of technical document no one is ever going to read... I suppose I will try and find a suitable subject in an attempt to demonstrate the supposed benefits, one way or another. Perhaps the swaying arms of a daphnia sp. works?

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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#20 Post by MichaelG. » Mon May 15, 2023 6:43 am

On the subject of ‘nerd speak’ … I have just found this:
https://www.hamamatsu.com/content/dam/h ... CU_tec.pdf

I probably don’t need to worry though … I suspect it would be way out of my affordability range.
https://www.hamamatsu.com/content/dam/h ... 0-20CU.pdf

MichaelG.
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MichaelG.
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#21 Post by MichaelG. » Mon May 15, 2023 7:02 am

BramHuntingNematodes wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:27 am
If I ever get it working I might try to post a video of a 'tode whipping around to demonstrate the shutter system. Until then, I'm out two cameras.
My sympathy, Bram [particularly re. your preceding post which I didn’t feel the need to quote]

The practicalities of using [rather than playing-with] any RasPi camera seem almost insurmountable
… but I do live in hope of someone cleverer than me taking an interest in the GS model !
… Mine is currently set-aside until then.

MichaelG.
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Hobbyst46
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#22 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon May 15, 2023 8:58 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 6:43 am
I probably don’t need to worry though … I suspect it would be way out of my affordability range.
https://www.hamamatsu.com/content/dam/h ... 0-20CU.pdf
MichaelG.
Michael, once I saw what looked like small water spring-loaded hose connectors on the camera, I thought - are those real?
yet the specs say it is a liquid-cooled camera. If the connectors do not leak...
Hamamatsu has been making quality devices, but on a high price level.

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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#23 Post by MichaelG. » Mon May 15, 2023 11:38 am

.

Mmm … I wonder what special variety of water they use :?
.

4-46.png
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MichaelG.
.

but seriously, I presume the water is cooling the warm-side of a Peltier element
… unfortunately, I haven’t found a ‘teardown’ of this camera on YouTube :(
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Hobbyst46
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#24 Post by Hobbyst46 » Mon May 15, 2023 11:45 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 11:38 am
.

Mmm … I wonder what special variety of water they use :?
.


4-46.png

MichaelG.
.

but seriously, I presume the water is cooling the warm-side of a Peltier element
… unfortunately, I haven’t found a ‘teardown’ of this camera on YouTube :(
:roll:

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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#25 Post by Macro_Cosmos » Tue May 16, 2023 6:50 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 11:38 am
.

Mmm … I wonder what special variety of water they use :?
.


4-46.png

MichaelG.
.

but seriously, I presume the water is cooling the warm-side of a Peltier element
… unfortunately, I haven’t found a ‘teardown’ of this camera on YouTube :(
Yes, it is on the warm side. Hamamatsu will not endorse the use of general consumer PC coolers but I fail to see why that would not work for normal temperatures. To reach -30C, a chiller is used instead. There is a more economical model that uses forced fan cooling, the Orca-Flash4.0 LT3.
A recommended model was this: https://www.julabo.com/en-us/products/r ... io-cd-300f
Yeah, this, to cool down a camera... I know.

Price depends on the distributor and country. Everything is priced in JPY and it is up to the distributor to decide between a higher fixed price or 30-days guaranteed exchange rate. When I left, the V3 was about 32k and the LT3 would have been 15k.

The sensor is hermetically sealed in a vacuum chamber and cooled with a Peltier element. -30C is really nothing, check out the Andor iXon EM-CCD cameras which are cooled to -100C.

As for a teardown, I can show the LT+ (now LT3) if anyone is really interested. The construction is a typical two boards with a bridge for IO, and on the opposite side, connected to the sensor which is backfilled.

Hamamatsu is the most expensive out of the big 4. Andor is just slightly cheaper. They are about the same in terms of performance and brand loyalty.

MichaelG.
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Re: A potential Game-Changer

#26 Post by MichaelG. » Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:28 am

MichaelG. wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 7:02 am
BramHuntingNematodes wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:27 am
If I ever get it working I might try to post a video of a 'tode whipping around to demonstrate the shutter system. Until then, I'm out two cameras.
My sympathy, Bram [particularly re. your preceding post which I didn’t feel the need to quote]

The practicalities of using [rather than playing-with] any RasPi camera seem almost insurmountable
… but I do live in hope of someone cleverer than me taking an interest in the GS model !
… Mine is currently set-aside until then.

MichaelG.
.

Not sure yet, but this may be our salvation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wryZ9NH4IwA

MichaelG.
Too many 'projects'

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