Zeiss AxioCam HRc - Worth the bother?

[iPeace]

Hi all,
I bought a used Zeiss Photomicroscope III, which came with an AxioCam HRc CCD camera head, but no PCI adapter card nor software required to make it work. Is it worth the bother fishing around for a PCI card and software, or are there other alternatives as good or better that won't break the bank?

The date codes on the Zeiss documentation for the AxioCam HRc runs from 10/2001 to 8/2005, making it about 20 years old. I would like to think such things have gotten better and cheaper within that amount of time. Still might be interesting to get the original kit working, but not at great expense for old tech.

Thanks,
Scott

[Alexander]

Hi Scott,

You could give Zeiss Zen lite a try. This software is free but somewhat limited in functionality. Full versions of Zen or Axiovision are not exactly cheap. A bigger problem may be to find a firewire card with drivers for a contemporary operating system.

[Scarodactyl]

Optics can age like wine, cameras usually age more like milk. I have a friend whose academic lab was still using a specialized infrared camera from the late 90s which cost 40k new. It was absolutely blown out of the water by a cheap Canon eos t6 that someone on eBay had converted for IR shooting.

[Hobbyst46]

The Axiocam HR, as far as I can judge from its list of features, is a superb camera even vs today's standards. Its claimed performance is way above that of common "inexpensive" Chinese microscope cameras sold for 500-1000USD.
So I would definitely prefer it over modern cameras, but there are three issues IMHO.
1. The photomicroscope (PM) is much older than that (or any other) digital camera. It has finite 160mm tube length optics, and optically optimized images from the PM rely on both the Zeiss objective and Zeiss eyepiece. Thus, it is relatively easy to fit a camera in the afocal mode, i.e. a camera +camera lens+eyepiece+objective. But the Axiocam was probably devised for infinity corrected Zeiss microscopes (Axio... models), i.e. to be directly coupled to the microscope like this: camera+objective only. There are workarounds for this issue. I wonder how the previous user of the PM attached the camera.
2. As mentioned above, you need a specific firewire card. And motherboards have changed a lot through the last decades.
3. Annoyingly, very likely that the Axiocam can only be operated from a proprietary Zeiss software, and those are not free. I would try to inquire Zeiss about it. BTW, the same problem occurs with Olympus microscope cameras.

You may want to visit Rolf Vossen's site. He has tested several options of fitting cameras onto old Zeiss microscopes. Specifically, he tested APS-C SLR cameras.
Just remembered that forum member MicroBob has had a lot of experience of cameras on a PM.

[Scarodactyl]

The Axiocam HR, as far as I can judge from its list of features, is a superb camera even vs today's standards.

It has a 1.3mp sensor which can do sensor shifting to achieve 13mp. That was a huge deal in 2001 but today not so much.
There are some Chinese microscope cameras with 1" sensors which have shown good performance at a pretty reasonable price, though I've had trouble refinding the blog post with comparison pictures.

[Wes]

Get a PCI card and firewire from Amazon or elsewhere online. It shouldn't cost more than 30-50 USD. Zen lite is sufficient, you'll have to fiddle around with the right drivers but everything you need should be available online. I found myself in possession of a similar Zeiss camera last year and it was not at all expensive to get it up and running.

[Hobbyst46]

The Axiocam HR, as far as I can judge from its list of features, is a superb camera even vs today's standards.

It has a 1.3mp sensor which can do sensor shifting to achieve 13mp. That was a huge deal in 2001 but today not so much.
There are some Chinese microscope cameras with 1" sensors which have shown good performance at a pretty reasonable price, though I've had trouble refinding the blog post with comparison pictures.

Was it by Bob Berdan ?

[iPeace]

Get a PCI card and firewire from Amazon or elsewhere online. It shouldn't cost more than 30-50 USD. Zen lite is sufficient, you'll have to fiddle around with the right drivers but everything you need should be available online. I found myself in possession of a similar Zeiss camera last year and it was not at all expensive to get it up and running.

I would love to believe it could be that cheap, but it is an optical data inteface, and from what I have seen, it's Zeiss propietary. They are occaisionally on ebay, for more money than I paid for the microscope. A bit pricey for an experiment, especially since I don't know that the camera head works. The install manual does not say anything about the model number of the PCI card. I also don't have the power supply, but that is at least spec'd in the install manual. It would have been nice to buy all the origianl stuff from the seller, but (s)he went missing after the sale of PM III in all of its incomplete glory.

There are several whitepapers online for the AxioCam HRc. I found an install manual at https://s3p.manualzz.com/store/data/023881961.pdf

I don't know what the electrical connector is for, maybe an alternate IF like FireWire. I had thought of opening the camera head to see what chips are in it. I might find datasheets with command set, timing, etc, though I think writing my own camera controller is more of a project than I want. I may also only find a bunch of FPGAs in there, in which case the interface is unlikely to be published.

OTOH, I recently bought an AmScope DSLR - eyepiece adapter. Works okay, but my Nikon D200 has a DX sensor, so the field of view is pretty small.

[Scarodactyl]

The Axiocam HR, as far as I can judge from its list of features, is a superb camera even vs today's standards.

It has a 1.3mp sensor which can do sensor shifting to achieve 13mp. That was a huge deal in 2001 but today not so much.
There are some Chinese microscope cameras with 1" sensors which have shown good performance at a pretty reasonable price, though I've had trouble refinding the blog post with comparison pictures.

Was it by Bob Berdan ?

Thanks, that was the one! Not sure why my earlier searches came up empty.

[Hobbyst46]

Yes, RobBerdan's article is great and enjoyable. But I was really thinking of the cooling and sensitivity features rather than the number of pixels and type of interface. And I think these features were not specifically compared.
On eBay I see a current Risingcam "1.4MP USB3.0 SONY ICX825AQA CCD sensor", (1/1.2" sensor) cooled, costs 1050USD.
Compared to that, an Axiocam FOR FREE seems a bargain...

[Wes]

Get a PCI card and firewire from Amazon or elsewhere online. It shouldn't cost more than 30-50 USD. Zen lite is sufficient, you'll have to fiddle around with the right drivers but everything you need should be available online. I found myself in possession of a similar Zeiss camera last year and it was not at all expensive to get it up and running.

I would love to believe it could be that cheap, but it is an optical data inteface, and from what I have seen, it's Zeiss propietary. They are occaisionally on ebay, for more money than I paid for the microscope. A bit pricey for an experiment, especially since I don't know that the camera head works. The install manual does not say anything about the model number of the PCI card. I also don't have the power supply, but that is at least spec'd in the install manual. It would have been nice to buy all the origianl stuff from the seller, but (s)he went missing after the sale of PM III in all of its incomplete glory.

There are several whitepapers online for the AxioCam HRc. I found an install manual at https://s3p.manualzz.com/store/data/023881961.pdf

I don't know what the electrical connector is for, maybe an alternate IF like FireWire. I had thought of opening the camera head to see what chips are in it. I might find datasheets with command set, timing, etc, though I think writing my own camera controller is more of a project than I want. I may also only find a bunch of FPGAs in there, in which case the interface is unlikely to be published.

OTOH, I recently bought an AmScope DSLR - eyepiece adapter. Works okay, but my Nikon D200 has a DX sensor, so the field of view is pretty small.

You are right, I was thinking about the IEEE 1394a FireWire interface PCI card that I got for an Mrm axiocam. After reading the manual you linked to I see this is a much more sophisticated beast that you got there.

[Macro_Cosmos]

My 2 cents, you are better off selling it or as I usually do, turning it into a keychain.

[iPeace]

From the installation instructions I learned that the HRc's electrical connector is for an external shutter, so not something I can use as an alternate data connection:
"Via a supplementary cable the AxioCam HR offers a TTL control pulse, which can be used, for example, to control a mechanical shutter (e.g. "Uniblitz") in synchronism with the camera’s exposure time."

There are many different PCI cards that may (or may not) work. The label on the edge gives the closest thing to a description. Some examples I have found:
AxioCam Interface Rev. B
AxioCam Interface Rev. C
AxioCam HR Interf. Rev. E
AxioCam MR Interf. Rev. A

But nowhere have I found what PCI card works with what camera head model and version - mine is an HRc r2.0. I wrote Zeiss, but so far, nothing. The AxioCam HR Interf. card sounds like a good bet, because of the "HR" in its name.

The Axiocam HR, as far as I can judge from its list of features, is a superb camera even vs today's standards. Its claimed performance is way above that of common "inexpensive" Chinese microscope cameras sold for 500-1000USD.
So I would definitely prefer it over modern cameras, but there are three issues IMHO.
1. The photomicroscope (PM) is much older than that (or any other) digital camera. It has finite 160mm tube length optics, and optically optimized images from the PM rely on both the Zeiss objective and Zeiss eyepiece. Thus, it is relatively easy to fit a camera in the afocal mode, i.e. a camera +camera lens+eyepiece+objective. But the Axiocam was probably devised for infinity corrected Zeiss microscopes (Axio... models), i.e. to be directly coupled to the microscope like this: camera+objective only. There are workarounds for this issue. I wonder how the previous user of the PM attached the camera.
2. As mentioned above, you need a specific firewire card. And motherboards have changed a lot through the last decades.
3. Annoyingly, very likely that the Axiocam can only be operated from a proprietary Zeiss software, and those are not free. I would try to inquire Zeiss about it. BTW, the same problem occurs with Olympus microscope cameras.

1. Regarding tube length: The camera head has a lens screwed onto it. No markings, which would be rare for Zeiss, but heavy and has a proper dovetail coupling, so might be Zeiss
2. Regarding an old PCI card needing an old PC: I have a few old PCs gathering dust.
3. Regarding software: I have written to Zeiss, through their web site, asking what version PCI card and software works with the HRc r2.0 camera head. I have not heard back from them. They may not have much interest in helping amateurs with 20 year old cameras sitting on 50 year old microscopes.

I found myself in possession of a similar Zeiss camera last year and it was not at all expensive to get it up and running.

Oh, do tell.

[Hobbyst46]

A skimpy Google search has brought the name Henry Pinkard (@henrypinkard) (allegedly - for a device driver for old Axiocams)
and the software micro-manager (unknown to me).

Edit: I see that MM is an ImageJ application. It is configurable and "Axiocam" is included in its list of cameras.
Admit that MM seems neither inviting nor simple to use...

[iPeace]

A skimpy Google search has brought the name Henry Pinkard (@henrypinkard) (allegedly - for a device driver for old Axiocams)
and the software micro-manager (unknown to me).

I had seen that earlier. I wasn't sure if this driver is for the µManager - to - Zeiss optical PCI card interface, or for the AxioCam camera head firewire port - to - external shutter interface. The micro-manager.org AxioCam page could be interpretted either way. The link at the bottom of the page for the mailing list archive has the host name from nable.com, while the current host name is just micro-manager.org. Changing the URL to use the new host name gives a page not found error. A search of archive.org gave nothing.

I see no link to download the driver, so I assume it is packaged with the µManager software. There is a GitHub page for µManager, so that is a rabbit hole I may want to fall in, but not right now, sounds more like a good winter project.

[MichaelG.]

This may be a ‘Red Herring’ but I recall looking at micro manager a few years ago

There was a fairly sudden change from it being ‘open’ to the team charging for support/maintenance. … possibly aligned with the introduction of v2.0
https://micro-manager.org/Writing_plugi ... ro-Manager

… Your exploration of the rabbit-hole might be complicated.

MichaelG.
.
Apologies for the mixed metaphor

[MichaelG.]

Presumably this is the page already found:

https://micro-manager.org/AxioCam

.

Edit: __ this may be a good place to start:
https://micro-manager.org/Micro-Manager_Community

[viktor j nilsson]

This may be a ‘Red Herring’ but I recall looking at micro manager a few years ago

There was a fairly sudden change from it being ‘open’ to the team charging for support/maintenance. … possibly aligned with the introduction of v2.0
https://micro-manager.org/Writing_plugi ... ro-Manager

… Your exploration of the rabbit-hole might be complicated.

MichaelG.
.
Apologies for the mixed metaphor

Oh really? From what I've seen, micro manager is still very much free and open source. Where did you see this?

[Alexander]

Open source does not mean "free support and maintenance". Services are always charged in the open source world. You may use the software for free as long as you don't need external support.

[MichaelG.]

I really can’t recall the date, viktor … but it was presumably around the time that v2.0 was rolled out
[ as for where … it would have been on the micro-manager webpage ]
.
… Alexander seems to have summed up the situation nicely
… apologies if I put the wrong emphasis on it.

MichaelG.

[MichaelG.]

O.K. … found it

Copied below is the text from an eMail I received on 23-07-2015
… and, I repeat my apologies if I put the wrong emphasis on it.

MichaelG.

.
.

Dear Micro-Manager Community,

As announced previously on this mailing list [1], the Micro-Manager team is
moving from UCSF to an independent company this fall.

The date for this transition is now set to be October 1, and our new
company is called Open Imaging:


https://open-imaging.com


To keep Micro-Manager free to use, Micro-Manager development by Open
Imaging will be supported primarily by subscription-based services,
including technical support and access to pre-release binaries. You can see
details about the User Service Program at https://open-imaging.com/pricing.
We hope you will consider subscribing, to support the future of
Micro-Manager. There is a discount for ordering early.

We look forward to continuing our work on Micro-Manager and supporting the
microscopy community.


Best regards,

The Micro-Manager Team


[1] http://micro-manager.3463995.n2.nabble. ... 84449.html


--
Mark Tsuchida

Micro-Manager Team, Vale Lab, UCSF
and
CEO & Co-CTO, Open Imaging, Inc.

[viktor j nilsson]

Thanks Michael, I had missed this development.. However, it continues. The links were dead, but this is what is now found on Open-imaging.com:

Open Imaging is Closing
Open Imaging is no longer conducting new business.

For Micro-Manager information and community support, please see the Micro-Manager website.

Regarding the future of the Micro-Manager project, please see this announcement.

If you are a past customer of Open Imaging, please direct any inquiries to info@open-imaging.com.

Thank you,
Mark Tsuchida
CEO, Open Imaging, Inc.

The link to the announcement was also dead, but I found a copy on archive.org:

Dear Colleagues,

We are pleased to announce that Micro-Manager, the open source software for microscope control and image acquisition, will merge with the LOCI/Eliceiri group at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. The LOCI/Eliceiri group is a natural home due to existing Micro-Manager-based collaborations and great synergy with their ImageJ/FIJI activities. The lead developer Mark Tsuchida, previously from Open Imaging, Inc. has joined UW-Madison this summer. Tsuchida and Micro-Manager co-founder Nico Stuurman from UCSF plan to release the new build of Micro-Manager soon. Additionally, we will be working on joining the open source imaging software discussion forum at Image.sc as the main Micro-Manager support system.

During its 14 year history, Micro-Manager has enjoyed widespread use in the microscopy community. Its success in large part is due to all of you, your use, ideas and support. Despite the technical achievements of Micro-Manager, its funding has always been a challenge. Meeting the resource needs of Micro-Manager requires us to be opportunistic and responsive to the evolving funding landscape. This resulted in Micro-Manager moving out of its original home in the Vale Lab at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) in 2015 to a company called Open Imaging, Inc. That experiment, while useful in that it continued development of Micro-Manager, demonstrated to us the great value of having the primary Micro-Manager development occur in an academic environment.

We are pleased to have the support of the Micro-Manager principals and look forward to new collaborations with all who want to see Micro-Manager improve and grow in its features and application bases. These organizational changes will change very little about how users get and use Micro-Manager. It will continue to be an open and free tool, with online support that we hope to grow and community contributions from all our valued academic and commercial collaborators. Please contact any of us with any questions.

Signed,
Mark Tsuchida, Micro-Manager Lead Developer, UW-Madison
Nico Stuurman, HHMI Scientist, UCSF
Ron Vale, UCSF Professor of Cellular and Molecular Biology/HHMI Investigator
Kevin Eliceiri, Walter H. Helmerich Professor Medical Physics, LOCI, UW-Madison

So I think it's fair to say that the switch to a paid subscription model was more of a desperate attempt to be able to continue to develop micro-manager, rather than an attempt at turning it into a profit generating venture.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, it was interesting to read.

[MichaelG.]

Thank you, viktor

I had missed all of that development … and it’s good to have now seen the continuing story

Quite frankly, I felt ‘way out of my depth’ trying to use Micro-Manager, and the 2015 announcement was enough to discourage me from pursuing it further.

MichaelG.

[viktor j nilsson]

Totally understand that. I have a very fancy motorized Nikon Diaphot 300 with DIC and fluorescence (motorized stage, shutters and LEP mac2002 controllers from Ludl). The plan is that someday I'll get it to work with micro controller. But it's a bit daunting process to get everything setup, so it's been on my to-do list for a couple of years... but it's fantastic that such a capable open source software exists.

[MichaelG.]

Amen to that !

It sounds like you have the perfect ‘motivator’ to justify the effort.

MichaelG.

[iPeace]

A good first step is to apply power and see if the camera at least makes the LED glow. I know a glowing LED does not mean a functional camera, but a non-glowing LED means a non-functional camera, which makes further work unnecessary. The installation instructions specify the power supply as 12 VDC, 1 A. The barrel plug is 5.5 mm x 2.5 mm.

Can anyone with access to an AxioCam, HRc or other model, tell me if the power supply connector is center positive or center negative? It is generally shown on a graphic on the supply's label. While center positive is more common, there is no standard, and power supplies with either polarity are available. Many devices have no polarity protection, so getting it wrong may ruin it. Thanks.

[iPeace]

An update:
I tried an aftermarket 12 VDC, center-positive, 5.5 mm x 2.5 mm power supply. The status LED lights up, and after a few minutes, the body gets a little warm, which probably means that the Peltier cooling works.

I had looked into finding AxioVision software and drivers for the camera. Zeiss does not only require an activation key, but that key takes the form of a USB widget. The article I found does not specify if the widget is required to install the software, or if it is required only to run it. Odds are it's both.

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Micro ... 0-2014.pdf

My next step is to load µManager on a PC and see if it has the drivers required for an AxioCam HRc. I will also look into using a "standard" optical network PCI card (cheap) instead of the Zeiss card (expensive), but my guess is that Zeiss builds in proprietary physical layer and link layer protocols to their cards, else they would have sold their kits with standard cards.

[Scarodactyl]

Planned obsolescence (which is kind of adding insult to injury on a camera when normal obsolescenceis kind of inevitable).

[viktor j nilsson]

There's a micro manager device adapter for it, so definitely worth a shot.

https://micro-manager.org/AxioCam

[Alexander]

An update:

I had looked into finding AxioVision software and drivers for the camera. Zeiss does not only require an activation key, but that key takes the form of a USB widget. The article I found does not specify if the widget is required to install the software, or if it is required only to run it. Odds are it's both.
d (expensive), but my guess is that Zeiss builds in proprietary physical layer and link layer protocols to their cards, else they would have sold their kits with standard cards.

Download Zen from Zeiss. Without activation it starts as Zen lite which is free and it supports your camera.